Defcon 26 Workgroup Meeting - 2018-07-14

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Submitted by aerbax on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 21:40


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  • There will be a Bitcoin ATM available at Defcon this year...that will be repurposed into a Monero ATM
  • Discussion about a Defcon application/document requirement for any organization accepting money in any capacity on the show floor.
  • Something something MAGIC something something t-shirts and stickers
  • The Monero Research Lab, Kovri, and MAGIC will all be represented (with a shared table) at Defcon


Full Log

12:00 PM <xmrscott> Alright, it's 16UTC, let's begin
12:00 PM <msvb-lab> Defcon meeting starting now (at 16:00 UTC) on this channel..
12:01 PM <_Slack> <sean> I have to leave in 20 minutes, so I hope to talk about the ATM mailing fees beforehand.
12:01 PM <xmrscott> Agenda can be found here:
12:01 PM <@rehrar> woohoo!
12:01 PM <msvb-lab> xmrscott: Can we move ATM to the front so that Sean can participate with that?
12:01 PM <xmrscott> Yes, that was what I was trying to type
12:01 PM <xmrscott> sean: You have the floor, take it away
12:02 PM <_Slack> <sean> Ah, yes.
12:02 PM <@rehrar> go sean!
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12:02 PM <_Slack> <sean> We are receiving a Bitcoin ATM machine for the conference.
12:02 PM <msvb-lab> No we are receiving a Monero ATM.
12:03 PM ⇐ @rehrar quit ( Quit: Leaving.
12:03 PM <msvb-lab> It will not be able to dispense Bitcoins, after we hack it. Really.
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12:03 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes, sadly the name of the device is "Bitcoin ATM" :(
12:03 PM <msvb-lab> sean: I see, you mean there is an official name. Okay, understand.
12:03 PM <_Slack> <sean> It's all the same to the manufacturer.
12:04 PM <_Slack> <sean> We'll be in possession of the ATM for the conference but are required to forward it to another address in Florida after we're done.
12:04 PM <_Slack> <sean> The device is heavy and with the packing slips and box the weight will be 53 pounds US.
12:05 PM <_Slack> <sean> The cheapest option is to use USPS Ground shipping.
12:05 PM <_Slack> <sean> For that size and weight, the total for the shipping will be $105.22 US.
12:06 PM <_Slack> <sean> Since we're receiving it already boxed, it's unlikely that we'll need to purchase shipping slips or another box.
12:06 PM <_Slack> <sean> And I assume we'll have access to shipping/masking tape at the conference.
12:06 PM <_Slack> <sean> So the shipping costs will be the only thing we will need to cover.
12:07 PM <_Slack> <sean> There may be other costs associated with operating the ATM but we haven't finalized the plans just yet. We will need to talk about those at the next meeting.
12:08 PM <msvb-lab> sean: Regarding shipping costs, I believe ajs will add that to the budget. It seems he has a plan to finance somethings.
12:08 PM <_Slack> <sean> OK, great.
12:08 PM <msvb-lab> Most of this is documented in
12:08 PM <_Slack> <sean> Then I'll plan handle the costs and have a receipt available for review after.
12:09 PM <msvb-lab> sean: Thank you, that's a good plan. Make sure to inform ajs.
12:09 PM <_Slack> <sean> Will do.
12:09 PM <msvb-lab> It would be good to get people's opinions on operational concepts.
12:10 PM <msvb-lab> The manufacturer is keen on helping us, that's why they are sending the device in the first place. They have informed a local Vegas group or company that we request their help (it is a group with a money transmitter license.)
12:10 PM <msvb-lab> It's up to us if we accept the group's help if they offer it.
12:10 PM <oneiric_> sean msvb-lab: how will the ATM be connected to the internet?
12:10 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes. I've reviewed the software and have high confidence on its security.
12:11 PM <_Slack> <sean> It's likely that it will be able to connect to the hotel's WiFi without any issues.
12:11 PM <msvb-lab> oneiric: We can choose one of 802.3, 802.11 (+802.13? DC), or make our own hotspot.
12:11 PM <msvb-lab> I vote for copper cabled to DC's backbone.
12:11 PM <_Slack> <sean> It also has an ethernet port that we can relay to our own router.
12:11 PM <msvb-lab> ...but there are good reasons to choose 3G hotspot as well.
12:11 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes.
12:11 PM <oneiric_> sean: recommend against hotel wifi
12:11 PM <xmrscott> I also vote copper cabled backbone
12:12 PM <@rehrar> hear hear
12:12 PM <msvb-lab> Can anybody think of a good reason to reject this group's help with operation (to cover legality of licensing) if they offer it?
12:12 PM <_Slack> <sean> msvb-lab: My only concern is the problem of not getting support on the day we leave.
12:13 PM <_Slack> <sean> What do we do if that group just doesn't show up?
12:13 PM <msvb-lab> sean: If the group does not show up, then we have lost our first choice operation concept and must chose another.
12:13 PM <msvb-lab> ...assuming we place them in first choice place.
12:13 PM <_Slack> <sean> I mean, on the Sunday when we leave.
12:14 PM <msvb-lab> sean: What kind of support would we need?
12:14 PM <_Slack> <sean> We will have the money in the lock box. If they don't come to collect it we can't do anything with the ATM.
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12:14 PM <_Slack> <sean> They will have the keys that we will have to send so we can't send the ATM to Florida.
12:14 PM <msvb-lab> sean: I understand, so the worst case is that they sell their XMR, do not pick up the cash.
12:14 PM <_Slack> <sean> We will be stuck in limbo.
12:14 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes.
12:15 PM <msvb-lab> sean: You understand that we maintain control over the machine right? We hold the keys at all times.
12:15 PM <_Slack> <sean> That might be a concern to the group, then.
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12:15 PM <sneurlax> he's saying that we'll be responsible for their cash
12:15 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes. That's can be a problem if something bad happens. :S
12:15 PM <oneiric_> wouldn't that be incentive for them to show up?
12:15 PM <sneurlax> but it's their responsibility to pick it up prior to sending it off to FL
12:15 PM <msvb-lab> In fact, the manufacturer offered to supply the cryptocurrency as well, in case the group does not want this type of involvement and just wants to supply their agreement on paper that they are the operator.
12:16 PM <sneurlax> if they don't... nuts
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12:16 PM <sgp_> All right I'm here and can talk about MAGIC when you're ready
12:16 PM <_Slack> <sean> Yes, this is confusing and could wind up bad. If we do this, we need to make sure that this group can guarantee that nothing goes wrong.
12:16 PM <sneurlax> this is great PR for the ATM (BTM?) company, of course they just want it to work well
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12:17 PM <_Slack> <sean> This is something we can discuss later though.
12:17 PM <_Slack> <sean> (I have to leave soon.)
12:18 PM <msvb-lab> There are other options to using the machine without the legality of having a license in place, I guess we could assume that minimal use is considered educational. Is that a better choice?
12:18 PM <xmrscott> sean: We just discussed corklanders cost list item, right?
12:18 PM <_Slack> <sean> smrscott: Yes, I'll be contacting ajs.
12:18 PM <@rehrar> just sell testnet Monero?
12:18 PM <oneiric_> lol
12:19 PM <_Slack> <sean> rehrar: That is actually an option, yes.
12:19 PM <@rehrar> Wait! hold on.
12:19 PM <@rehrar> We can sell Wownero
12:19 PM — @rehrar stops shilling now
12:19 PM <msvb-lab> I think to wrap up the ATM discussion, if the group rejects our greeting (no official request so far) then we move on to other choices. If the group offers to help, I'm going to write a message to the mailing list and please everybody do what they can to clarify what we should do at that point, okay?
12:19 PM <@rehrar> you got it
12:19 PM <_Slack> <sean> msvb-lab: Yes, that's good.
12:20 PM <oneiric_> +1
12:20 PM <_Slack> <sean> I have to leave. Thanks all!
12:20 PM <xmrscott> Thanks sean!
12:20 PM <sneurlax> See you! /starts mining testnet
12:20 PM <oneiric_> bye sean, many thanks
12:21 PM <xmrscott> So our next item is in regards to a "one time promoter application" which is due Monday
12:21 PM <xmrscott> msvb-lab can you speak more to what that is and what we need to get done?
12:21 PM <msvb-lab> This is task #56:
12:21 PM <msvb-lab>
12:22 PM <msvb-lab> I don't have many details, and the form to fill out is rather self explanatory.
12:22 PM <@rehrar> oof, sales tax
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12:23 PM <msvb-lab> There are rules at Defcon and one of them is, that all villages who fail to fill out a 'One time promoter application' by this Monday are forbidden to conduct sales in their space.
12:24 PM <msvb-lab> Last meeting the question was asked which things would be for sale in our village and everybody except me stated that nothing would be for sale, so I'm a bit confused about that to begin with.
12:24 PM <sgp_> Does this apply to donations?
12:24 PM <msvb-lab> But if I'm really the only one selling anything, then it's possible that I should be the one to apply.
12:24 PM <xmrscott> sgp: "Selling or Not Selling (donations are not taxable)" So no is my understanding
12:24 PM <sneurlax> Link to form?
12:25 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: I have information about that...
12:25 PM <sneurlax> or will there be just one for the whole village?
12:25 PM <msvb-lab> Villages accepting donations must fill out a 'One time promoter application' or else they are not allowed to accept donations.
12:25 PM <oneiric_> what about donations with swag as gifts? ;)
12:25 PM <sneurlax> it parenthetically says it doesn't apply to donations but that nonprofits need to be credentialed (bring your proof of nonprofit)
12:25 PM <xmrscott> sneurlax: Form (in wiki format) is here:
12:26 PM <msvb-lab> The donation does not requre sales tax to be paid.
12:26 PM <sgp_> All right, then MAGIC needs to fill out the form or be included in it
12:26 PM <msvb-lab> And lastly, nothing can be exchanged for a donation.
12:26 PM <sneurlax> thanks xmrscott, was expecting a link or address on that task
12:27 PM <msvb-lab> sneurlax: You read correctly (if you're referring to line #3) that villages accepting donations but not selling anything should state 'Not selling' in the application.
12:28 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: If our contact is MAGIC then they need to fill out the form today, basically. I need to get it by tomorrow (and there is half a world of timezone induced lag) then it needs to arrive in time for the Monday red alert.
12:28 PM <sgp_> So should I just include the details in a Taiga comment?
12:28 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: If it's okay with MAGIC to publish the form, then yes put it in the Taiga comment.
12:29 PM <msvb-lab> If not, then send it to me
12:29 PM <sneurlax> what's your preferred direct message platform/address?
12:29 PM <sgp_> ok
12:29 PM <sneurlax> ^^
12:29 PM <msvb-lab> And the third option is if their information should have maximum anonymity they can send it to the organizer directly (I must provide that information to them privately.)
12:30 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: Are you fairly sure that MAGIC is going to handle the form then? Is it possible for you to call them now or something?
12:30 PM <sgp_> I'm on the board of MAGIC
12:30 PM <sgp_> We intend to solicit donations, so we will fill it out
12:31 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: Is it a wood board that you are on? Okay, I understand and think we can rest this topic then.
12:31 PM <msvb-lab> Let's be very very sure that the form gets in DT's hands on time though.
12:31 PM <@rehrar> boooo
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12:31 PM <msvb-lab> I understand his concern.
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12:31 PM <xmrscott> Alright, next item is treasurers reporting on sales plan
12:32 PM <oneiric_> can it be filled out as blanket form for monero & umbrella projects to receive donations?
12:33 PM <msvb-lab> oneiric_: The form is filled out once for our whole village and all our donation and selling activities, yes.
12:33 PM <xmrscott> AJS can't make it today, but AJS said to look at the draft here for reviewing:
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12:33 PM <oneiric_> msvb-lab: thanks, sorry xmrscott
12:33 PM <xmrscott> No worries oneiric_
12:33 PM <xmrscott> And "If anyone wants to add any other supplies to the budget, PM me on Mattermost/Slack/Riot or add a comment in Taiga #16 Multievent shopping list. FFS will be requested to cover these expenses." -AJS
12:34 PM <xmrscott> Pretty straightforward.
12:34 PM <xmrscott> Next item is "Press relations report the byline"
12:35 PM <msvb-lab> xmrscott: Just a minute?
12:35 PM <xmrscott> msvb-lab: sure, go ahead
12:35 PM <msvb-lab> Can we do a minute on accepting payments from treasurers.
12:35 PM <msvb-lab> I mean, if we have a group of treasurers they are probably skilled with exchanging currency.
12:35 PM <msvb-lab> So can we please have a single policy about how to accept XMR and if other currencies are on the list?
12:36 PM <msvb-lab> We can't solve the problem in this meeting, but we need agreement on if a single wallet is used for ETH or if ETH is simply not accepted, for example.
12:36 PM <sneurlax> should treasurers accepting payments share view keys?
12:36 PM <@rehrar> I would vote for XMR and USD only
12:36 PM <@rehrar> simpler
12:37 PM <@rehrar> anyone that wants to buy or donate using ETH can use ShapeShift or similar
12:37 PM <sneurlax> whatever globee does :P
12:37 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: Good idea just XMR and USD. sneurlax, assuming we get help from GloBee (quite possible) then that would change our policy wouldn't it?
12:38 PM <msvb-lab> In any case, whoever get's interested by this may start by creating a monetary village policy in:
12:38 PM <msvb-lab>
12:38 PM <sgp_> I think XMR directly (eg: Monero Integrations, direct) or GloBee is fine. People can donate in Bitcoin and I think that's fine
12:38 PM <msvb-lab> a new task.
12:39 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: There are lots of mini questions even assuming XMR or GloBee, like do we issue a different PaymentID for example. And which format or how to check.
12:39 PM <sgp_> msvb-lab I see no reason to have a specific policy for that
12:40 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: Okay, that's a policy in itself. To allow each cashier to choose their manner of accepting payment.
12:40 PM <sgp_> When in doubt use best practices (integrated address)
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12:40 PM <oneiric_> would using subaddress per transaction work here?
12:41 PM <sgp_> oneiric_ it could yes, though slightly less supported
12:41 PM <oneiric_> ok, thanks sgp_
12:41 PM <msvb-lab> oneiric_ sgp_: Do either of you have time to make a task under user story 4, documenting things like subaddresses?
12:42 PM <oneiric_> msvb-lab: can take a look, and add some info
12:42 PM <sgp_> msvb-lab if you want I can come up with a list of "best practices" and we can see if we want to make any mandatory at a later meeting
12:42 PM <sneurlax> that might also fit under the education & demo tasks... or at least, documenting it like that serves two purposes
12:42 PM <oneiric_> ^ +1 for sgp_ :)
12:43 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: that's an excellent idea, and oneiric_ can add his info too. Thanks!
12:43 PM <sgp_> all right, I'll work on that
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12:44 PM <xmrscott> Sounds like a wrap for that item, for now?
12:45 PM <xmrscott> Alright, I'm going to jump ahead briefly in the agenda because we have 15 min left and this item affects future meetings
12:45 PM <xmrscott> Next item: We have three Saturdays after this before DefCon which would mean one more meeting 7/28; is going to every Saturday to have three meetings instead warranted to ensure final alignment on various items?
12:46 PM <msvb-lab> Probably yes.
12:46 PM <xmrscott> Any people who believe having all future meetings every Saturday 16UTC would be bad?
12:47 PM <sgp_> Reminder that if you are participating in the Coffee Chat, you should join now. If you still need an invite, PM me
12:47 PM <sneurlax> I'd move to 17UTC but ...
12:48 PM <@rehrar> I'm down for weekly.
12:48 PM <xmrscott> sneurlax: The problem is that would put us in conflict for 2? Monero Meta Workgroup meetings
12:48 PM <oneiric_> weekly sounds good to me too
12:48 PM <sneurlax> whoops,
12:49 PM <oneiric_> I'm flexible on time of day
12:49 PM <xmrscott> Alright, I see no objection so FYI next meeting will be a week from now at 16UTC
12:49 PM <xmrscott> If there are it can be raised in the mailing list I guess
12:50 PM <xmrscott> So continuing our trend of jumping around to priority items, sgp's item regarding "Vendor tables and if a space can be secured for M.A.G.I.C. to give away free merch and solicit donations"
12:50 PM <sgp_> Yes
12:51 PM <sgp_> We want to give away free webcam covers, t-shirts, tri-folds with information, and stickers
12:51 PM <sgp_> It would be nice if we had a space to give it away
12:52 PM <msvb-lab> sgp_: The golden release of our floor plan is:
12:52 PM <msvb-lab>
12:52 PM <sgp_> I'm not really familiar with the process of assigning tables
12:52 PM <msvb-lab>
12:52 PM <@rehrar> I have MAGIC's request for a table
12:52 PM <@rehrar> working on that
12:52 PM <msvb-lab> ...which clearly shows an area close to the doors where vendors can sell and showcase.
12:52 PM <sgp_> cool, that's all I really need then
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12:53 PM <oneiric_> IIRC, MAGIC and Kovri will be sharing a table. How do we want to divvy up the time?
12:53 PM <sgp_> We can go 50/50 if you want
12:53 PM <@rehrar> MRL and Kovri will be sharing a table
12:53 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: You and Tonya are in the process of determining a policy for providing folks like MAGIC space and time with a minimal rule set I think?
12:53 PM <@rehrar> MAGIC is a third entity
12:53 PM <@rehrar> yes
12:53 PM <oneiric_> Oh, I misunderstood then
12:53 PM <@rehrar> yeah, it gets confusing
12:54 PM <oneiric_> :)
12:54 PM <@rehrar> kovri will probably get one day and MRL the next day
12:54 PM <@rehrar> in regards to their table split
12:54 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: Remember there are three days (more like two and a half.)
12:55 PM <@rehrar> hammering it out today
12:55 PM <@rehrar> do I need to send you an email with the final results too?
12:55 PM <msvb-lab> rehrar: Are you asking if I need a final result by email? No.
12:55 PM <@rehrar> ok, great
12:56 PM <@rehrar> I know the issue is if sponsors want to sell anything
12:56 PM <@rehrar> sponsors that want table space after the deadline will be informed it will be informational only
12:56 PM <@rehrar> if they get space
12:58 PM <xmrscott> Alright, we're at the two minute mark, msvb-lab is that enough for badge report?
12:59 PM <msvb-lab> Yes, badges are okay. From task #22.
12:59 PM <msvb-lab>
12:59 PM <msvb-lab> The only thing I'm worried about is that batteris (CR2032) have not arrived yet.
12:59 PM <msvb-lab> If anybody knows of a good backup plan in case we only get a half shipment (not enough for everybody) then it would be good to know.
12:59 PM <msvb-lab> There is Fry's in Vegas. Not a good backup plan however.
1:00 PM <msvb-lab> Keep your eyes out (mailing list and IRC) for advance purchase possibility in a week or two.
1:00 PM <msvb-lab> xmrscott: That's all for badges, thanks.
1:00 PM <sgp_> Coffee Chat link:
1:00 PM <monerobux> [ Monero Coffee Chat - 2018.07.14 - YouTube ] -
1:00 PM <xmrscott> OK, that's the meeting folks
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1:00 PM <xmrscott> Thanks for all who could make it
1:01 PM <@rehrar> yay!
1:01 PM <@rehrar> Coffee Chat time
1:01 PM <msvb-lab> xmrscott: Good one, nice moderating.
1:01 PM <xmrscott> Next one will be 7/21 16UTC